Pastor Michael Guglielmucci was lying about his Terminal Condition!
Pastor Mike Guglielmucci preached about his battle against cancer, it all LIES??!! So Sad!!
Ai yo yo!! This came as a Super Shock!! Julie was the first to MSN me today with the news. And i was like… no way!! This can’t be true. Then Sue shared with me the website of the Australia AG (below), and i was like … sigh why lah!
And i was planning to sing Healer next week! I love the song, and if u have read my own blogs you would know that i constantly sing this song over Nathanael and claim his healing. The song is no doubt anointed and powerful in its lyrics when it declares nothing is impossible for God. Its just saddens my heart that many who may have looked up to Pastor Mike Guglielmucci would not understand why he would do such a thing.
Guess we’ll have to wait to see what his reason for doing what he did. But more importantly we just need to pray for him and his family and for those who have looked to him as a support / encouragement for their own cirtical conditions. Guess we have to always keep looking UP … up at GOD!!!
Meanwhile we’ve compiled some news and article about this subject below.
Please Read on
HE preached to thousands about his terminal illness and tugged at hearts with a hit song.
The problem is the pastor wasn’t dying at all !
Michael Guglielmucci, who inspired hundreds of thousands of young Christians with his terminal cancer “battle”, has been exposed as a fraud.
Guglielmucci, whose parents established Edge Church International, an Assemblies of God church at O’Halloran Hill in Adelaide’s southern suburbs, now is seeking professional help.
Earlier this year, Mr Guglielmucci released a hit song, Healer , which was featured on Sydney church Hillsong’s latest album.
The song debuted at No. 2 on the ARIA charts.
It since has become an anthem of faith for believers, many of whom are suffering their own illness and were praying for a miracle for Mr Guglielmucci, who has claimed for two years to be terminally ill.
In one church performance that has attracted 300,000 hits on YouTube, he performs his hit song with an oxygen tube in his nose.
It appears Mr Guglielmucci, who was a pastor with one of Australia’s biggest youth churches, Planetshakers, may even have deceived his own family.
“This news has come as a great shock to everyone including, it seems, his own wife and family,” Hillsong general manager George Aghajanian said in an email to his congregation yesterday.
“Michael has confirmed that he is not suffering with a terminal illness and is seeking professional help in Adelaide with the support of his family. We are asking our church to pray for the Guglielmucci family during this difficult time.”
The Advertiser was told last night Mr Guglielmucci may release a statement on the situation.
The Australian Christian Church said Mr Guglielmucci’s credentials immediately were suspended once he told the national executive that his cancer claims were “untrue”.
“The national executive is taking this matter very seriously and is awaiting the results of medical tests before determining the full extent of the discipline that will be imposed upon him,” vice president Alun Davies said.
“We are very concerned for the many people who have been or will be hurt by Michael’s actions.
“We encourage all of our churches to pray for all those affected.”
1st Update
From the Australia Assemblies of God – link
Representatives of the National Executive recently met with Michael Guglielmucci. At this meeting he read a statement indicating that his claim to have cancer was untrue. His credential with the ACC was immediately suspended.
The National Executive is taking this matter very seriously and is awaiting the results of medical tests before determining the full extent of the discipline that will be imposed upon him.
We are very concerned for the many people who have been or will be hurt by Michael’s actions and we encourage all of our churches to pray for all those affected.
Yours sincerely,
Alun Davies
National Vice President
20 August 2008
2nd Update
Hillsong Website has removed HEALER from This Is Our GOD CD – link
Hillsong Website : The "Healer" song was removed from the songlist. Originally the song comes after Stronger
On another note with regards to YouTube Videos: Shortly after the news broke of this alleged fraud, videos were removed from Youtube which showed Guglielmucci speaking openly about his cancer and also featured various footage of him wearing an oxygen mask while leading worship.The Youtube messages indicating that the Hillsong Publishing was asserting their copyright of the material and having the videos removed.
Update3 :
Email from PlanetShakers Church about Mike Guglielmucci – Link
From: church@planetshakers.com
Subject: Important announcement regarding Michael Guglielmucci
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:14:15 +1000
Dear Church,
It is with great sadness that we send you this email. We wanted to tell you all in person but because others were being informed outside our church we felt it necessary to send you this correspondence. Michael Guglielmucci has informed us that he does not suffer from cancer, was never diagnosed with cancer, and has never suffered from the disease.
This admission has come as a great shock to everyone including his Wife and family who had no knowledge of the matter. We know this will shock and hurt many of you and we offer you our support and prayers.
Our pastoral team will be available to offer any assistance in regard to this situation. We are all saddened by this revelation and our prayers are with the Guglielmucci family. We would encourage you to take this situation to the Lord in prayer responding out of a heart of love, grace and truth.
While it is difficult for all of us to understand why this happened we would encourage you all to a closer personal walk with our Lord Jesus. On Sunday we will announce the news again to the church with other relevant information that may help you in dealing with this matter from a personal point of view.
We love you all dearly and would hate for this information to hurt you in any way. We are praying for you all. We want the best for you all.
All our love, Russell and Sam Evans
Update4 (23 Aug) :
Investigations into Mr Guglielmucci’s Bank Account – News Link
PASTOR Michael Guglielmucci has been told by church officials to report to police, who will investigate what has happened to money raised during his cancer deception.
The Australian Christian Churches told The Advertiser yesterday that it was auditing Mr Guglielmucci’s bank accounts, which included money donated from people touched by his hit song Healer.
** Listen to FairFax Radio commentary on this similar story – here
Update 5 (24 Aug)
Mike Guglielmucci’s statement below was read to the church by his father today
The statement was read to a packed congregation at the pentacostal church his father, Danny Gugliamucci founded, Edge Church International at Reynella.
Mr Gugliemucci’s says the reason behind his fictitious cancer story was to hide his 16 year obsession with pornography.
“It is with much pain and sadness that I make this statement today,” he said in the statement.
“For over 16 years I have struggled with an addition to adult pornography as a result of this secret life of sin my body would often breakdown.
“I’d report the cause of my symptoms simply as illnesses and I’ve thrown my life into a ministry for many years trying to compensate for my sin.
“I believe that I do love Jesus and I know that he loves me and it is this love along with the prayers of people around the world that bring me to this place of confession.
“Two years ago, I reported that I was suffering from cancer, the truth is that although I was ill I did not have cancer but was again using the misdiagnosis to hid the lie that I was living.
“I know in my heart that it is the truth alone that will set me free and this is the reason for my confession.
“I’ve dishonoured God, my wife, my family and the church and I take full responsibility for my actions and would like to make it very clear that no-one else was in any way aware of my double life.
“I’m fully commited to a process of discipline, recovery and restitution and will see this process through to what ever extent is necessary.
“I am deeply sorry and pray that you will find it in your hearts to forgive me.
“Currently I am undergoing professional medical assessment and evaluation to help identify and begin to treat the real and much deeper issues.
“Please continue to pray for my wife and I and my family as we have a long, hard road ahead of us but a road that I’m thankful to God that I’m finally walking.”
Additional News on Adelaide Now : Mike’s Secret Life of Sin & Mike’s Father’s Explanation
A New Blog called PlanetShakers Insider has been birthed by a church member of PlanetShakers to talk openly about this incident and to also continue to help promote the positive sides of Planet Shakers.
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this is very sad. but i believed, the people who are healed are by God. and who knows what lies in the heart of a man but God alone?
That’s too bad that the secular news media got their hands on this bit of news first. I still think “Healer” is a powerful, anointed song. It ministered to me during a rough season. Anyway, I looked up the Assemblies of God Australia and they had a statement on his minister’s credentials
http://www.aog.org.au/Media/Na.....fault.aspx
Yeah .. the song HEALER is a good song.
And i constantly sing it over Nathanael each time i sing the song.
But just that now there’s this stigma about this problem. Sigh. still deciding now whether i should sing this song in next week’s Healing Encounter Service.
Yeah, I hear you. Stigma on the song… I feel the same way. But, personally, we shouldn’t allow man’s weakness to get in the way of what the Lord has allowed to be birthed. Healer… let’s pray the Lord continue to work and heal Mike and his family, and the many who might need the Healer, as this news gets out.
True we should not let a man’s weakness come in the way. Its just that i guess with the internet and media nowadays, things are “KNOWN” by the minute and everyone and anyone who has online access finds out things so much faster.
That’s the part that is bothering me, the knowledge of what he did. But i guess even if we teach the song in church, there would be many (the large majority) that would not know about this siutation and would not be bothered.
….. hmmm … still deciding on whether to do it or not.
and yes.. we really need to pray for him, his family and the people under his ministry.
I think we should still do it, the song was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and not by the story behind it. The lyrics magnifies our Lord, Jehovah Rafah, and we should proclaim it together.=)
I agree with Levi. Although the person who wrote the song may not had been fully honest about his inspiration, the words are just as true. It’s still a beautiful song. When singing it, you won’t be singing his testimony. Instead, you’ll be singing the testimony of yourself and your church.
Yeah… i agree the stigma is there it is tough, but it was and still will be the song that drives me on in what i do. because everytime i sing that song I am reminded of how great our God is .
On another note he was apparently suffering from munchausen syndrome a psychiatric disorder according to someone i know.
According to wikipedia “munchausen syndrome is a syndrome where by in which those affected fake disease, illness, or psychological trauma in order to draw attention or sympathy to themselves. It is in a class of disorders known as factitious disorders which involve “illnesses” whose symptoms are either self-induced or falsified by the patient. It is also sometimes known as hospital addiction syndrome.”
I agree with Levi n Reggie, it still is an awesome song and the song in the end glorifies God’s name as our Healer and our Portion. The stigma may be there, but I believe that God can work through anything! He is still our Healer and our Deliverer. He is still the one who will walk thorough the fire with us. And isnt it true, Nothing is impossible for God!
Lets all uphold mike and his family, the churches involved as well as those affected by this situation. Lets pray that God will bring about healing in their lives and that because of this we will grow stronger and we will continue to fight the Good fight. man may fail us, but God never will.
Bit of a shock,coming only two weeks after Todd Bentley news!I guess it emphasizes that we really must keep our eyes on Jesus, not man!Leaders do have failings sometimes but Jesus doesn’t!The song itself is great-I’m gonna keep using it.
I suspect that there is something systemically wrong with the AOG in this regard. The AOG measures success by attendance numbers (quantity, at the expense of quality) and it doesn’t surprise me that someone so charismatic found success for so long.
Is this so unusual? No. We can look at the number of instances of child abuse in the Catholic Church and deduce something similar. There is probably something systemically wrong with the Catholic Church too.
Some action needs to be taken with regard to both the system of the AOG and the individual who made the choice to deceive.
Hey Daren,and others,I am not wanting to excuse Mike’s actions.But there is a ’stigma’ about being being a Christian anyway,so why worry about using what is a GREAT song?Also, please remember that the Bible’s book of worship(psalms)was written in large part by an adulterer and murderer(David).David also prophesied in the Spirit about Jesus, and was a great leader!
We are having a conference over the next week with Ps Peter Tan here in Auckland at our church, and we will be using the song.
Hope this helps in people’s processing of these events.
Dear Andrew
I doubt its fully the AG’s responsibility. Each man is accountable to God for their own actions before any other person or organization.
So let’s watch our walk daily and ensure that we don’t stumble people on our Journey of Life with God.
Dear Brett
Tks for pointing out David’s example, that’s absolutely true yes and often not realized that he was also struggling and wrote many psalms which we sing today.
Thanks for that!
Daren, don’t misunderstand me. Please re-read the final sentence in my first comment and you will see a clear both … and in there.
Sad sad day… Mikes a good man and a lovely brother. Lets pray that the body of christ rises up from this. All eyes are not on what Mike has done, but finding potential flaws in the Christian faith and its establishment.
http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/...../33139/p1/
Hi,
I just found out about this and have been looking through this page and really feel i need to respond. I was given a label of Munchausens syndrome years ago, and had spent a large portion of my life doing the things that warrant that label. However, 6 months ago i graduated a christian programme that God used to change my life and completely heal, transform and set me free. I understand the powerful driving force behind what Mike has done, and I know what a dark and painful place he was in to do that and will still be in now. Please know he meant no harm to anyone, and with Gods healing power He can be free and healed completely from this. god will then use this for good, good you can not imaging. Just like he has done in my life.
Thanks for reading,
from Jayne
mahn, this is really sad…i still love ps mike and always believe in ps mike even he lied or whatever….if a well known christian/songwriter fails its just easy to make a comment and easily judging him in anyway but when a non well known christian/songwriter..its maybe in our church or he/she not that BIG artist…we dont care at all…Love is all that matters..lets pray for ps mike…just like david in the psalms….david was a popular person before but he always fail..if it is today i dont think they will still believe in david…*sigh* …i am praying for you pastor mike….hold onto his promises….
Hey Andrew
Yups just re-read. OKies
Dear Jayne
Prior to this I’ve not heard of Munchausens Syndrome, so thanks for sharing. And i am glad that you are out of it now by God’s Grace! Tks for sharing your Victory with us! All Glory to GOD!!
Hey guys
Does anyone know HOW DID all this all come about?
Did Ps Mike just one day decided to share it openly that it was all a dud?
Did someone find out about it and approach Ps Mike?
Just wondering how did all this came about this way?
Daren,
Just go ahead and play and sing the song at GT. The song didn’t deceive people. If the song gives encouragement and increases faith, then doesn’t it qualify as a Kingdom of God material?
I would give the song some time before singing it. What others have written is true (ie its still God inspired etc etc)
But if you have doubts and given the controversy’s at the moment…best to use another song so that people can worship with out thinking about what has happened in the last few days & be distracted.
In a awhile once all has “cooled” down then you can continue to sing it if you so choose
Some thoughts on the word ‘anointed.’
The Hebrew verb is ‘mashach’ (Strong’s #4886) meaning “to anoint”. In the ancient Hebrew culture is customary to pour oil on the head of one who is being given a position of authority. This practice is called “anointing”.
The oil used to signify that someone or something is consecrated or set aside was a special oil made of ingredients proscribed by God (Exod 30:22-25). This oil was considered sacred and wasn’t to be copied for other uses. To use this oil for other uses was considered an abomination to God (Exod 30:32-33; Levi 10:7, 21:11-12; Eze 23:41).
From the same ‘mashach,’ we get ‘meshiyach’ – ‘Messiah’ or ‘the Anointed One’ which is Jesus Christ himself.
More thoughts:
1. How do believers know something is ‘anointed’ – in this case, a song? What do we mean when we say the song ‘Healer’ is anointed?
2. Do we mean the song can bring healing? Do we have evidence of this?
3. Do we mean the song glorifies God in its entirety: the melody, the lyrics, the process by which it came to be composed, the living testimony of the composer?
I’m thinking ‘Amazing Grace’ written by John Newton. Here we get slave trader, powerfully convicted of sin, repents, turns away from slave trading, works towards a Bill a Parliament to outlaw slave-trading, composes song to convey heartfelt gratitude towards God for saving him.
4. Has the song withstood the test of time? Will people look back on it and say, ‘Wow, that song is the testimony of that guy who was so convicted by God and so wonderfully healed of his sin and sicknesses!’?
Again, I’m thinking ‘Amazing Grace.’
Kinda hard to see ‘Healer’ being ‘anointed’ in that sense. I mean Gugs wrote it while faking cancer and addicted to porn. Worse, he sang in on stage with tubes up his nose and all – an image stuck in the minds of many of us here in Down Under. Still asking ‘God, why are you anointing a song with a porn-and-fraud composer?’
Still thinking about the word ‘anointed.’
Any pastors out there who can help process this thought?
Thanks for listening.
Well this Pastor still thinks it’s anointed.
I know this isn’t the appropriate place… I’m wondering what the program was, Jayne? (if you’re still around) As someone who has lived with similar behaviour (Munchausen’s) tho never confronted, Mike’s and his family’s courage and compassion gives me hope to search for my own healing. I can’t imagine having the courage to tell anyone the lies I have lived. Who to tell who’s not going to freak out?? When I heard this story, I thought ‘****, there’s someone who might understand’.
im not deceived…i still believe in God %100 and ps mike….just look at the lyrics and the verse that he read…we all know the cancer was just a hoax but for me, what he means about the healer song is the inner struggle that he is asking to God that needs to be healed…mahn, i still love ps mike and i forgive him…God is Love…
Healer is an annointed song….one that Mike missed the meaning of maybe. God desires to heal Mike. Our focus should be on God, not Mike and what an amazing song writer he is…..all glory goes to God. If we loved the song because of Mike and not because God is the one who gave it to him then that’s probably why we dont want to sing it anymore. Mental illness is as serious an illness as cancer and in that respect he probably has been closer to death than we will ever know.he needs our prayers as much as he did when we thought we knew what he was suffering from
Hmm. I tend to agree – nothing wrong with the song, for what its worth to maybe allow the song to rest a little longer. Song might have been written under anointing, came from the Lord regardless of the vessel. But if by singing it, it detracts and distracts people from the Lord, then maybe we gotta consider the weaker brethren. My 2 sen opinion
On the idea of ‘anointing’, I googled this up..
Not apprehending to be a theological expert, but yeah, whatever he was, this pastor feels Mike was anointed. Another sinner, saved by God’s grace – he’s stumbled, but here’s praying he’s gonna get well, and get better.
mahn God will use this song too to heal people about mikes action….
I find it funny that we are wondering if the song is anointed or not or whether it’s still anointed after knowing the reason behind it. Firstly, how do we even determine whether a song is anointed? Do we base it on how people react to it? Or whether it stands the test of time? Or because it was inspired through God’s conviction?
Mike G released a statement saying that he wrote Healer because he was inspired to be set free from porn addiction. The writer of “As the Deer” wrote it after breaking up with his girlfriend. Darlene wrote Shout to the Lord after she had a miscarriage. All these songs were so called anointed even before we knew the reason behind it.
If God is a respecter of no man, then at the very point of time when Mike led Healer could have been an anointed moment because could he not had truly wanted God to heal him from his addiction? Btw, no song can bring healing. Only God. Songs are like any other method God can bring healing through.
If we were to see every reason behind every song written, I believe that we will have to remove a lot of songs from our database. Imagine all the other songs Mike wrote even during his addiction to porn.
We can’t justify the anointing based on what we perceive things to be. That’s putting God in a box.
We pray that God will anoint us as a worship team on weekends but we know that there are some worship team members who smoke or drink during the week. I’m not surprised some are struggling with addictions too. But the fact of the matter we see God’s anointing on them because we see the desire to serve Him and the love for Him. Best example is David. He committed murder and adultery and wrote Psalm 51 after being convicted and there are so many anointed songs written today inspired by that.
My point is, the anointing is entirely up to God. We cannot categorize songs as anointed or not. If we can pray for God to anoint the instruments in our church knowing full well that people who built them were probably not Christians, can’t we also ask God to anoint a song to be used for His glory?
Just because we do not “feel” the song or are not “touched” by the song does not mean that its not anointed.
So let’s put aside our self righteousness and check our lives. We are as vulnerable as Ps Mike or anyone for the matter. We do not have the right to judge a song, the composition, the testimony, the inspiration and the anointing of worship in person’s life or a church. We however have the responsibility to keep our walk with God and God will deal with whatever dirt we have in His timing.
Hi PH,
I don’t have much time to respond like i want to now as i have to go get a plane! but i want to respond and connect with you over this so hang in there for me. My email address is mercybutterfly@hotmail.com. i have been in two places, but the one that would be most relevant is Mercy ministries, it transformed my life. Anyway, i hope we speak soon,
love Jayne
Thanks for responses guys but wow, this one blew me away!
Re Jonkoo: ‘So let’s put aside our self righteousness and check our lives. We are as vulnerable as Ps Mike or anyone for the matter. We do not have the right to judge a song, the composition, the testimony, the inspiration and the anointing of worship in person’s life or a church. We however have the responsibility to keep our walk with God and God will deal with whatever dirt we have in His timing.’
Sheesh. A false kind of humility, I think. Doesn’t line up with what we’ve learnt about being accountable, confessing our sins to one another, confronting a brother who sins, testing the spirits, and judging sin according to 1 Corinthians 5.
No wonder Mike Gug’s fraud went on for two years and his porn addiction for 16 years, the poor guy. Christians apparently are not to judge one another’s song/composition/testimony (my God, isn’t that how Mike G got into trouble in the first place?? Fake testimony??)/ inspiration/anointing. Just close our eyes and repeat what we hear from the pulpit.
No wonder wolves like Jim Jones could sneak in as a charismatic pastor and incite a mass suicide – ‘Just swallow the Kool-Aid people, don’t ask!’ No wonder we have con jobs like Marjoe Gortner, heck, no wonder we have JWS and Mormons!
So guys, you think we could play Madonna’s Like A Virgin and ask God to anoint it since it’s up to God to ‘deal with whatever dirt we have in His timing’ and He can anoint ‘anything’ for His glory? C’mon man, get real — talk about moral relativism!
Anyway, thank God the folks at Planetshakers and Hillsong aren’t buying this anything-goes business – they’ve pretty much pulled the plug on Healer from all their albums. And by the way, Mike G never said he wrote the song about his porn addiction. Read his original testimony. You can’t backtrack after you’re exposed and say, ‘Oh yeah I actually meant to say ‘porn’ but accidentally said ‘cancer’ at first.’ (People who’re sent to jail for fraud make such excuses all the time. It’s called ‘covering up.’)
I know a lot of people find it comforting to think we’re as vulnerable as Mike but hey, let’s not mock God. It isn’t OK at all if anyone of us is watching porn and serving as a worship leader, or any other ministry in church. It also isn’t OK if we knew a brother doing it and we keep it a secret, saying it’s God’s business, not ours.
Hi Daren,
This is so surprising!! Wow! Never know that, maybe he is suffering from something else but not cancer. Maybe he think that its a way to get ppl’s attention to the song. Who knows except God! Its sad,but we have to except it.
I think you should sing this song no matter what, doesn’t mean that the pastor made a mistake we have to take it out on the things he has done. I have always believe that this song is mean to be,like the song Shout to the Lord. This song is really powerful, same as the desert song, all Hillsong song’s have a statement. Don’t judge the pastor and the song. This song have a story behind this song.
Apparently, this song is in one of the planet shakers album?
ray-man: Looks like now it’s a matter of opinion rite? Since you have brought up everything else under the sun from the bible and cult leaders and re-enforced your opinions based on that. Where by the initial context we were commenting about was the anointing on how it affects songs written FOR GOD. How in the world does Like a Virgin come into the picture? Context man.
And aren’t we discussing about this official statement which consists of Mike G’s admission to writing Healer because of his addiction? By now, isn’t it obvious that his original testimony to cancer was an official lie because the truth is finally revealed? If you could take his original testimony at face value, why call his confession now as a cover up? So now, since he had confessed to the church at large, you still want to lash out at him? So much for grace given.
So tell me, what do you “preach” to your members or friends? What if they had songs they wanted to write for God but their lives were still in a mess? What if you did not know about those sins? Would you still encourage them to write meaningful songs of worship and maybe one day sing them in church? Maybe the way you do things in church, assuming you are a leader, is that you confront their sins, get them to confess, and then give them the opportunity to write songs. However, the reality of church is this; there are so many gifted song writers in church that have imperfections whether it be sexual addictions, drugs, adulterous sins, chronic lying, disobedience to parents. So would YOU like to confront them about their sins so that they be convicted and transformed and then only write songs of worship? Geoff Bullock wrote Power of Your Love and then he fell in adultery and some churches I know still sing the song today. Go figure that out.
You talk about doing things right and that we should live by the Word. Who knows, maybe someone did confront Mike G about his addiction 16 yrs ago. Maybe it was his father. Maybe he did confess that addiction at a youth meeting. Maybe he got caught in the addiction again. Did you know? And hasn’t he already been confronted, exposed, convicted, revoked of his license, dealt severely already? Isn’t that what you talked about by bringing up 1 Cor 5?
I am amazed that you can quote scriptures about pointing out someone else sin but have the guts to point the finger at others. Well done. Please do not be righteous yourself and mock God yourself.
When I said that it’s our responsibility to keep our walk right and let God deal with other people and that includes our own dirt, was to respond to way how people have been criticizing the whole issue about Healer and Mike G. Never did I say that we are to neglect our responsibility of watching out for each other. You think by me saying that we are vulnerable just like Mike is an excuse to sin and mock God? You’ve misunderstood me again. I say that because I know what it is like to fall as a minister.
Please do not adopt a Pauline like attitude and be so high and mighty and quick to point a finger. How can you take one part of scripture that condemns and not balance it out with grace undeserved?
I gather you do not respect my opinion much, therefore I do not expect you to disagree agreeingly with me on this whole issue.
I wrote that post in response to other comments. If you personally felt that it was directed at you, I do not apologize. However I apologize for not being clearer about my comments.
Warning, long post. Apologies to blog host, begging your indulgence, feel it’s absolutely necessary in the light of Jonkoo’s article.
Jonkoo, this is my response to you:
“So now, since he had confessed to the church at large, you still want to lash out at him? So much for grace given.”
Mike G’s been lying 16 years. General consensus – he’s a pretty good liar. Imagine he hoaxed his whole family (and they’re pastors themselves) and the highest level of AOG authority here in Down Under. His confession doesn’t mean he isn’t lying any longer. ONLY TIME WILL TELL. His own dad is packing him off to the psychiatrists. That tells us his dad, a senior minister in big AOG church, is suspecting something pathological about Mike. And we know pathological liars don’t quit overnight. They can’t, that’s why it’s pathological. A mental disease needing long-term rehab.
Also here in Oz, fraud is a criminal offence punishable by jail. Mike G committed fraud while an ordained minister. So just because we Christians say we forgive Mike, it doesn’t mean the cops will. Our grace can’t protect him from jail time. Mike G may or may not still be charged by the police. His dad knows that. That’s why he’s hired a lawyer. It’s no longer just a church matter; it’s a police case. And some people (Christians who have left the church because they are so hurt by the con job) are threatening legal action cos they’ve given a lot of money to help Mike G. These Christians ain’t rich; in fact they’re poor. Most of us gave cos we loved Mike G and sacrificed for him, so you can imagine our sense of betrayal.
“So tell me, what do you “preach” to your members or friends? What if they had songs they wanted to write for God but their lives were still in a mess? What if you did not know about those sins? Would you still encourage them to write meaningful songs of worship and maybe one day sing them in church?”
If my friends’ lives were still in a mess and I knew FULL WELL about it, I’d say ‘Write all the songs you want, JUST SING ‘EM AT HOME.’ Look, God struck down those Levites who touched the altar with ‘strange fire’ – fire that is not from God – and I reckon worship that comes from the flesh, no matter how catchy the tune – is ‘wild fire.’
“Maybe the way you do things in church, assuming you are a leader, is that you confront their sins, get them to confess, and then give them the opportunity to write songs.”
Right on, mate! That’s exactly the way we strive to do things here. Key word being ‘strive to’ cos sometimes some people are just great liars and it’s hard to catch them (re Mike G). You mean in your church the pastors don’t check out thoroughly who goes on the pulpit? Anybody with enthusiasm and some song-writing skills can be made a worship leader? Oh man … yikes!
“However, the reality of church is this; there are so many gifted song writers in church that have imperfections whether it be sexual addictions, drugs, adulterous sins, chronic lying, disobedience to parents. So would YOU like to confront them about their sins so that they be convicted and transformed and then only write songs of worship?”
Right again, mate! Prophet Nathan confronted David, a great songwriter. And David was judged. His son died on the seventh day. If God disciplines this great songwriter, what makes you think the rest of us can get away with it. By the way, I’m not sure David started writing his songs before or after the Bathsheba episode. (Must go check my Bible.)
Just check out 1 Corinthians 5. If a ‘brother’ hasn’t repented and won’t stop sinning even after repetitious warnings, this Scripture says I’m not even to sit down and eat a burger with the guy. So yeah, if I can’t even eat with him, what makes you think I can sing along with him?
“Geoff Bullock wrote Power of Your Love and then he fell in adultery and some churches I know still sing the song today. Go figure that out.”
Geoff Bullock wasn’t ‘in adultery’ when he wrote Power of Your Love. Mike G was ‘in porn and fraud’ when he wrote Healer and in fact claimed the song is ‘because’ of his ‘cancer diagnosis.’ Major, major difference that! Geoff’s fall came at the end of his ministry, way after POYL was composed.
“I say that because I know what it is like to fall as a minister.”
I’m sorry, I did not know you were a fallen minister. Have you been restored and what was the process like?
“Please do not adopt a Pauline like attitude and be so high and mighty and quick to point a finger. How can you take one part of scripture that condemns and not balance it out with grace undeserved?”
You gotta help me out here, mate. I’m confused. What’s wrong with a ‘Pauline attitude?’ Last I checked I thought the apostle Paul wrote ‘imitate me even as I imitate Christ?’
Anyway, ‘grace undeserved’ doesn’t mean we continue to abuse ourselves after we’ve come to know God. In fact, Paul wrote (sorry mate, I just love the guy!) wrote a fantastic piece, talking to Christians who thought exactly the way you’re thinking and told them they were dead wrong. Check out the book of Romans.
Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in SIN so that GRACE may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
Romans 6:17 Though you were slaves of SIN, you BECAME OBEDIENT from the heart to that FORM OF TEACHING to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Matter of fact, Jesus Himself said this:
John 14:21 He who has My Commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.
Matthew 5: 17-20 Never imagine that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. And until Heaven and Earth pass away not one comma shall pass from the Law til it is full in force. Anyone who relaxes a single one of the least of these Commandments and teaches others to will be ranked least in the Kingdom. But whoever keeps them and teaches others to will be ranked great in the Kingdom. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
In the same chapter, Jesus explains not only have we got to obey the law, we have to obey even a higher law. We can’t even ‘hate’ a brother because that’s ‘murder’ already.
Worse, I think Jesus is even saying we can’t even make offering of praise and worship to God if we had a quarrel with a brother and haven’t sorted it out.
See Matt 5: 23-25. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
So yeah, I reckon if we’re still knee-deep (or neck-deep, I dunno how far some guys can get away with things in their church) in porn, drugs, lying, adultery, sexual sins, disobedience to parents, we shouldn’t be in a hurry to stand on a pulpit and get people to sing the songs we wrote.
“I gather you do not respect my opinion much, therefore I do not expect you to disagree agreeingly with me on this whole issue.”
Not sure how you get the ‘I don’t respect your opinions much’ bit. It’s just one post and I’ve never met you. Perhaps you mean because I ‘completely disagree’ with your version of grace and your version of what it means to bring ‘anointed’ worship and ‘anointed’ songs to the Lord. Look, I got no way of saying it. Your version of grace is completely off the charts. It isn’t what Jesus taught and isn’t what the apostles preached.
“I wrote that post in response to other comments. If you personally felt that it was directed at you, I do not apologize. However I apologize for not being clearer about my comments.”
No fuss with the apologies, mate. No fuss about ‘personally directed’ as well. Just hope you’re not struggling with ‘porn, sexual addictions, drugs, adulterous sins, chronic lying, and disobedience to parents’ and are leading worship and writing worship songs at your church.
Hope your mates in church are also not doing that. From the bottom of my heart, I pray to God you guys aren’t doing that. Cos if you are, you’d end up exactly where Mike G is today – stripped of your credentials, sent to the psychiatrists, facing possible fraud charges by the police, your songs removed from websites and albums, your financial accounts being audited, your family having to fork out every single cent you’ve earned from your ‘anointed songs’ and you struggling with a body that’s literally breaking down on you. (Mike G’s vomiting, losing hair, breaking bones, despite not having cancer. I think he thought he could hide his sin from God and everybody and just keep turning up on the pulpit churning out ‘anointed songs.’)
Jonkoo, if you have such issues or your mates do, seek help. Talk to a pastor, talk to a qualified mentor, talk to a mature home group leader. Don’t talk to a Christian who is immature or younger than you cos that’d just stumble him. Confess your sin and hold yourself accountable to the mature believers. If you watch porn that week, tell them about it and get them to keep a check on you. They don’t call porn an addiction for nothing. Your brains a super-recorder. Even if you watched it once, it keeps playing back hundreds of times. We’ve got guys in our church struggling with porn for years and years just cos when they were kids, some idiot gave them a look at some filthy magazines. God bless you, man!
Sigh…you do know that I’ve been reading the same articles that you’ve been reading about Mike G? I know about the legal issues and the punishment he’s going to go through. Like you said, ONLY TIME WILL TELL and what I’ve been trying to say is that can’t you leave it at that and stop condemning already? It started out about the anointing of the song. Fine, we’ve said our piece. You disagree? Fine with me. You think I’m way out in my theology? Fine with me because I’m still learning I guess. You sound like you’ve got it all figured out. Good on ya.
So now, does this mean I cannot worship God because we had this argument?:) But then again, you could say that you weren’t arguing with me and was pointing me to the right direction in my theology and understanding of grace, salvation and sin.
You know, whatever it is that you are dealing with in OZ, I respect the way you handle the situations over there. But over here where I’m at, people relations are handled differently. Confrontation is not done just because it’s the right thing to do but out of love and wisdom which is still the right thing anyway. The church leadership is very cautious and guards the pulpit well. I’ll put it as that the preaching of the word and the worship here is overseen here with fear and trembling.
And yes I have been restored and still on the journey of learning the discipline and character of a minister(you might scoff at that thinking that I know nothing about being one). But I doubt that you’d be praying earnestly for me anyway. At the end of the day, what are you trying to prove? That you are right and I’m wrong? That I should apologize for being frank? Please…reveal thy true purpose.
Btw, you did not answer this question of mine. “What if you did not know about those sins? Would you still encourage them to write meaningful songs of worship and maybe one day sing them in church?”
How would you know at the end of the day whether it’s strange fire or not? How would you know whether its worship from the flesh? How do you define that? Please enlighten me. How can YOU tell? I’m not writing this out of sarcasm. Just would like to know more on what you think.
David wrote the psalm AFTER Nathan confronted him and he had been keeping that lie for 9 months until the baby was born. So if it were after, that would make the psalm an anointed one? Did he write other psalms while keeping the secret? Did God use him and continue to establish his kingdom after? It was God’s promise to David right? So he made bad choices and he paid dearly for it. But God still kept to His word. Rahab was a prostitute, but she was mentioned specifically in the Jesus’ genealogy to show God’s plan still works out. Isn’t that grace? Or is that God’s sovereignty at work? What is grace then? Do YOU still sin the same sin occasionally even after being forgiven at the altar? If you don’t then I respect that because you’re the first person I know who will be able to sin no more after salvation. How come people still sinned in the early church, even after hearing the gospel and reading the letters from Paul? And the church over the centuries having read the bible over and over again still sin the same sins even after gained that knowledge?
Sigh…my point here is that ignorance is definitely unacceptable. But people still commit the same sin from time to time. I believe that even some ministers still struggle with certain sin. But we see God still using them somehow. I’m not saying that all Mike G did with all the fraud and addiction is right for a minister to preach weekend after weekend but really, can you forgive him for that betrayal? I mean, we can see all the wrong he has done and what he will do to pay for it literally. But he did say that Jesus spoke to him saying that the truth will set him free. ‘ONLY TIME WILL TELL’ rite? Hate the sin, love the sinner? Even though he’s pathological? Did we feel cheated over here? Yes. Did we feel betrayed? Yes to an extent minus the monetary issues. Were we quick to criticize? Yes. But with the turn of events that added to the shock, this is what I’ve learned. My sin will find me out and I better guard my life and watch out for others.
Look, ray-man..
Jesus told us to take up our cross, and to die to ourselves daily if we were to follow Him. So here I am trying to die daily to my sins because I know full well that I cannot do it all at one go. Correct me if I’m wrong (which I have a feeling you would).
Alright, I will not debate with you anymore over theology. I do not want this thread to get too heated up. So thank you for pointing out a lot of things. It has taught me to look at scripture in another light. You could be right in a lot of things but will leave it at that. Thank you once again for being so passionate about this whole issue. And I do not say that with sarcasm. Serious.
After reading the comments in this post, my first inclination was not to get involved but I think I’ll add my two cents on this and try to keep it short. This is just my opinion and so feel free to shoot me down. =P
I believe that it’s not for us to judge and condemn Mike, but that a very clear standard has to be demonstrated that his actions are not condoned. The focus should not be on judgement…it should be on setting a biblical standard for purity and integrity.
Without diluting this standard then, we should extend our prayers and love to Mike, his family and everyone this situation has impacted. God’s grace is above the charts of human comprehension. Who are we to judge? Our responsibility is to be an example and constantly reach for the standards that Christ set. This includes grace and purity does not include condemnation.
I know that people may argue that there is a fine line between setting strict standards of righteousness and purity, with judging someone, but as imperfect humans, we must strive to differentiate the two and reach for the former, even if it comes down to an attitude of the heart.
Let God judge Mike in His own way, and let us extend grace and prayers whilst communicating and maintaining clear biblical standards.
Also, the grace of God does not necessarily discount Mike from the consequences of his actions. For example, David may have been completely forgiven every time he repented but in more than one instance, still had to suffer the severe consequences of his actions. Therefore, the legal repercussions and other consequences will still be a reality even if grace and forgiveness is extended.
Finally, in terms of using the Healer song, I believe that we should use it…just not immediately. There’s no point opening up the congregation to more distractions during worship if they are up to date with the news. The focus is not on whether the song is anointed or not; it is on helping the congregation connect to God during worship. There are enough distractions as it is for people not to be able to break free in surrendered worship to God during service as it is – why add another?
Hope that I haven’t been too long-winded. These are my thoughts and opinions.
Have a blessed week, everyone.
Sorry guys…I typed the above out really quickly and realised that there are some typos and grammatical mistakes. I was going to leave it as it is but saw that there was one sentence where the meaning may have been impacted due to my ‘blur-ness’.
Please take note that in the third paragraph in my comment it should read:
“This includes grace and purity but does not include condemnation.”
The rest of the mistakes y’all will just have to bear with.
Cheers.
Roger:
Appreciate your ‘use it later’ stance. That’s the way I’m going at the moment. Too many hurt youngsters and too many angry parents (most of our youths come from non-Christian families, so you can imagine the fallout over the scandal. Bullets are flying fast and thick. Don’t wanna give the folks more ammo to stop their kids from coming to church).
Jonkoo:
Now that I know your situation I’d most definitely pray for you. And like I said, no fuss with the apologies mate.
To answer ‘What if you did not know about those sins? Would you still encourage them to write meaningful songs of worship and maybe one day sing them in church?’ – this is a question of community and fellowship. Unless we’ve walked with a person closely and his life is transparent, we can’t really vouch for him. I’d encourage a believer who loves to write songs to keep writing but there is no rush for me to put him on the pulpit to lead worship or for me to promote his songs.
Re: ‘How would you know at the end of the day whether it’s strange fire or not? How would you know whether its worship from the flesh? How do you define that?’ I’m thinking end of the day, the Lord Himself reveals it to the body of believers. Like Mike G’s case. His fraud was uncovered and now everybody knows his Healer story was a lie. This is a very public defrocking indeed. Definition of ‘worship from the flesh’ for me at the moment is when a guy is in deception (lying to others and lying to himself) and being aware of his deception, he continues to lead worship among the brethren. Years ago heard a pastor preach ‘true worship’ (as opposed to ‘worship from the flesh’), must go dig up the sermon again. Any pastors in your church preached the subject? It’d be good to hear what they said.
Glad you think David wrote the psalm AFTER Nathan confronted him.
Unless the Lord has dealt with a guy and there is fruit of genuine repentance, there isn’t any rush for us to promote his songs.
Rahab wasn’t put up as an example of a ‘good prostitute’ – if this were so, Christians wouldn’t mind their daughters working as prostitutes. Rahab was a prostitute who when confronted with God’s children, decided to trust in the ‘God of Israel’ and gave her allegiance to Him.
Re: ‘Do YOU still sin the same sin occasionally even after being forgiven at the altar? If you don’t then I respect that because you’re the first person I know who will be able to sin no more after salvation.’
My folks had a history of alcoholism and abuse. But praise God since we came to Him, we haven’t fallen back into that state. Been set free and intend to stay set free, mate. Not boasting but just stating what God has done for us.
Re: ‘How come people still sinned in the early church, even after hearing the gospel and reading the letters from Paul? And the church over the centuries having read the bible over and over again still sin the same sins even after gained that knowledge?’
Each time there was sin in the early church, the apostles dealt with it head-on. All the letters of Paul were battles against heresy, sin and weaknesses among the brethren. (I like what he told young Titus: stand up and rebuke those messing about with the truth, don’t let anyone bully you because of your age.) In certain cases, God himself dropped the axe. Haven’t you read the case of Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 – struck dead for lying about money and property? This was after the Pentecost came and grace was in full dispensation.
Anyway, this isn’t a quarrel or a theological debate (actually a theological debate isn’t a sin, is it?). I wish you well and thank you for your utter frankness and hope you appreciate my utter frankness as well. Continue your walk of faith and maybe someday I’ll be hearing your song, eh?
Cheers, mates.
Ptr Rick warren has a point on this thing…i know he didnt address it to mike…but i think there is some common ground with this daily devotional.. PLS READ..
When Tempted, Seek Support
by Rick Warren
You are better off to have a friend than to be all alone . . . . If you fall, your friend can help you up. But if you fall without having a friend nearby, you are really in trouble. Ecclesiastes 4:9–10 (CEV)
*** *** *** ***
When you’re tempted, reveal your struggle to a godly friend or support group. You don’t have to broadcast it to the whole world, but you need at least one person you can honestly share your struggles with.
The Bible says, “You are better off to have a friend than to be all alone . . . . If you fall, your friend can help you up. But if you fall without having a friend nearby, you are really in trouble” (Ecclesiastes 4:9–10 CEV).
Let me be clear: If you’re losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and you’re stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention–failure–guilt, you will not get better on your own! You need the help of other people.
Some temptations are only overcome with the help of a partner who prays for you, encourages you, and holds you accountable.
God’s plan for your growth and freedom includes other Christians. Authentic, honest fellowship is the antidote to your lonely struggle against those sins that won’t budge. God says it is the only way you’re going to break free: “Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed” (James 5:16, NIV).
Do you really want to be healed of that persistent temptation that keeps defeating you over and over? God’s solution is plain: Don’t repress it; confess it! Don’t conceal it; reveal it. Revealing your feeling is the beginning of healing.
Hiding your hurt only intensifies it. Problems grow in the dark and become bigger and bigger, but when exposed to the light of truth, they shrink. You’re only as sick as your secrets. So take off your mask, stop pretending you’re perfect, and walk into freedom.
© 2008 Purpose Driven Life. All rights reserved.
Pastor Mark Conner of CityLife Church Melbourne has just put up this terrific post on his blog. It’s called Fruits and Gifts. Here’s an excerpt:
FRUITS AND GIFTS
by Mark Conner
Jesus said that we can know the credibility of a ministry by their ‘fruit’, not by their ‘gifts’ (see Matthew 7:15-23). Gifts of the Spirit, as well as natural talent, are important but they are no evidence of a holy life. In fact, gifts can deceive us as to the true nature of a person. That’s why character is to be the foundation of all ministry. ‘Who we are’ (fruit) is more important than ‘what we can do’ (gifts).
The interesting thing about gifts is that God gives them and doesn’t take them back. Read this comment by Paul when writing to the believers at Rome …
“For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.” [Romans 11:29-30. NLT]
That means that a person can still continue to minister with the gifts God has given to them even when their character is not right. That’s pretty scary because it enables people to abuse the grace of God – for a time.
Ray-man,
I totally agree with the part about not rushing the fresh songs and about the dealing with individuals in truth and grace. I really do. I was only bringing up the matter of allowing God to deal with Mike without being too judgmental because we all know the consequences of sin and especially when it affects the Christian community at large. Actually, come to think of it, we started off on the topic of anointed songs. How did we end up talking about sin and grace? Oh yes, Mike G.
You are right when you say God dropped the axe in the early purification of the church and grace has always been there ever since the Old Testament. I believe that God will continue to drop the axe but that is still entirely up to Him rite? I feel that the matter still boils down to us because sin is part of the human nature as Paul said in Romans (you asked me to read it so I did). My point is this..we will struggle with different kinds of sin throughout our lifetime. Some easier to overcome and some harder. We just need to cautiously but graciously extend forgiveness when it’s needed as a body and at the same time deal with the sin justly without condemning the sinner(minister or not). I’m coming from the angle that
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.’Num 14:18.
I think we’ve come to an understanding that Mike G is left at the mercy of God and that we as believers should continue to uphold the church in prayer that it will withstand yet another attack from the enemy.
So thank you Rayman, for your response. It has taught me much. Appreciate it. Cheers.
galatians 6:1
please restore the brethern you who are spiritual. if anyone is overtaken in a fault. bear one anothers burdens. love your neighbor as you love yourself. pray God’s mercey! i still love the song. God used
Moses who murdered an egypian. i was shocked but happy he does not have cancer. true matthew 5:23-25 we are commanded to forgive one another or we cannot be forgiven. where sin abounds grace much more abounds. you w/out sin cast the 1st stone. the church does not need to
I’m glad that this debate is over.
No point arguing over something that is highly subjective, because we are not God. We can present our case and argue over theological issues like lawyers, but in the end, who judges?
God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are our ways His ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His ways higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Don’t box-size God.
On a side note, the song ‘Healer’ was still sung in the Encounter Conference, and many were touched by God each night. He sees beyond a song, beyond the underlying profanity…
He looks into the heart of worship.
(So much for debating whether it’s anointed, or not)
Sign out!
Yes we used it this week in our revival conference in NZ and it was wonderful. It’s a great song.
i really believed that Healer is God breathed…..and Mike Guglielmucci is one of the millions christians who are struggling with the same temptation…. i still believe in Ps mike and Love him..i am praying for him….God will use this song to heal everybody to those who are hurting…
These are end times. The Church needs to stand, unite and rise up from this afflication. Its not just about Mike, all eyes are on the Christian establish and the Faith of the beleivers.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaid.....01,00.html
It appears in the debates one person states something then uses scripture to back it up.
I challenge you to question yourself as to whether it is your thought to begin with (from your perception) and the verse aligns with it so that must be the meaning of the verse or whether you read the verse first allowing the holy spirit to reveal the meaning of the literature to you.
In regards to using the song, annointing, ‘the song still touching people’, ‘touches from God’, ‘revival’. What kind of hanky panky God do we serve to talk about things in this manner? Are we so confused with why things happen that we try and monopolise our God into someone that ‘turns up’ etc etc. In humility I cannot and do not doubt God can use anything for his Glory and I cannot judge as to whether or not someones ‘encounter with God’ is for real.
What we can do, what we are called to do is ‘know them by their fruits’. Have we lost all discernment?
Is our God institutionalised? Has our concept of the Almighty been shaped by the media that invades and distorts our lives. Get away from this thing I’m using now to right this (internet), quit listening to all the confusion people fondle back and forth in our christian society. Make it your (myself included) responsability to know our God, read the Bible for yourself, find out who He is without our metro christian society telling you who he is and how he works. Seek wise council (grey haired style not blonde bleached styles wearing the latest glasses trying to look like a ‘hot’ christian leader). Spend time appreciating what God has done what he has made, not what man has made, not the music man makes. Listen to the music God makes (thunder, crashing seas, lapping waves, birds, everything that has breathe praise the lord) appreciate what is Real, what is True, love God and love others. Be wary of anything that seems put on and is put together as a show (for whos entertainment?), question motives, in your own lives and in what others portray to you. Strive for transparency in our Christian walk, not one of image or false facades that we put on around chuch people!
Peace
Hey, Nev, that’s actually not a bad comment!
Dear Brothers in Christ
In All of these Happening in the Body Of Christ (Church) is much more hurt with all the debates about one’s sin, Let’s Not forget that Our LORD Jesus Christ Is now seated on the Throne at the right Hand of Gdo and He is control, Letall pray and Mike and family, it is still the Bets thing do, I believe God always listen to the call of his children, coz God is not that far, his distance to us is the distance between our knees to ground, once we start to kneel and pray for one another in Jesus Name he is always faithfull to his words and promises
in Christ
Dan
are grate falily of your song thanks to all comment ilove my earth by jhimson brito in the philippines
all ways thanks to my god is the my emortality so good by napo sana gumaling ka po sa sakin mo okey mahalaga ang buhay wag kang mawalan ng pag asa kaya mo yan nandian pa c god manalig kalang babay